TIBETAN BARDO
Draw me a “spacial map, verbally, of the Tibetan view of the desire, form, and formless realms; along with the relative location of the bardo and also the dream world.
GEMINI
This is a complex request because in Tibetan Buddhism, "space" is not just physical location; it is a spectrum of density of consciousness.
The "map" of the cosmos is actually a map of the mind's own heaviness or lightness. The grosser the mind, the denser the realm it inhabits. The subtler the mind, the more expansive and immaterial its realm.
Here is a verbal spatial map of the Tibetan cosmos, visualizing it as a vast, multi-dimensional structure rising from heavy matter into pure abstraction.
The Cosmic Skyscraper: A Verbal Map
Imagine the entire cosmos as a colossal, metaphysical skyscraper or mountain structure (traditionally Mount Meru), surrounded by an infinite ocean of space.
1. The Ground Floor & Basement: The Desire Realm (Kāmadhātu)
This is the realm of gross matter, intense sensory input, and emotional reactivity. It is called the "Desire Realm" because the beings here are driven by grasping at sense objects.
Spatial Feeling: Heavy, crowded, solid, gravity-bound.
The Basement (Subterranean): Deep beneath the foundations are the Hot and Cold Hells. These are states of intense, claustrophobic suffering created by violent aversion and hatred.
The Ground Level (Surface): This is where we are. The Human realm and the Animal realm share this physical geography. It is characterized by a mix of pleasure and pain, and gross physical bodies made of flesh and blood.
The Invisible Neighbors (Interpenetrating): Occupying the same space as us, but usually invisible, is the realm of the Hungry Ghosts (Pretas). They are here, but their specific karmic vision makes water seem like pus and food seem like fire.
The Lower Heavens (Atmosphere/Lower orbit): Rising physically above the earth (like the peak of Mount Meru and the sky above it) are the abodes of the Demi-Gods (Asuras) and the six classes of Desire Gods (Devas).
Note: These gods still have physical bodies, genders, and desires. They eat, have sex, and fight, but their bodies are finer, their lives longer, and their pleasures more intense than humans. They are the "penthouse residents" of the Desire Realm, but they are still in the same building.
2. The Mid-Structure: The Form Realm (Rūpadhātu)
If you move "up" (which in Tibetan terms means refining the mind through concentration meditation), you break through the ceiling of the Desire Realm.
Spatial Feeling: Expansive, luminous, translucent, tranquil. Gravity feels lessened.
Location: Imagine vast, floating plateaus of light suspended high above the highest heaven of the Desire Realm.
The Inhabitants: The beings here have "Forms," but they are not made of gross flesh and blood. They possess Light Bodies made of subtle energy. They have no genders, no sexual desire, and no need for physical food. They are sustained by the bliss of meditative absorption (Dhyana).
The Layers: This realm is stacked in four great tiers, corresponding to deepening levels of meditation (the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Dhyanas). As you go higher, the light becomes more brilliant and the tranquility deeper.
3. The Abstract Canopy: The Formless Realm (Ārūpyadhātu)
This is the hardest to map spatially because, by definition, it has no location. It is the "highest" realm, not in altitude, but in subtlety.
Spatial Feeling: Infinite, empty, silent, purely mental. No "here" or "there."
Location: It does not exist in a place. It is a sphere of pure mentality that transcends spatial dimensions. If the previous realms are the building, this realm is the empty sky surrounding and permeating the concept of the building entirely.
The Inhabitants: Beings here have no body whatsoever—no flesh, no light. They are pure streams of consciousness resting in profound states of abstraction.
The Layers: They dwell in four "spheres" of perception: Infinite Space, Infinite Consciousness, Great Nothingness, and the Peak of Cyclic Existence (Neither-Perception-nor-Non-Perception).
The Transit Zones: Dream and Bardo
The Bardo and the Dream World are not separate "floors" on this map. They are temporary states—cracks in the architecture—where the rules of the current realm loosen.
The Dream World: The Internal Simulator
Relative Location: The Dream World occurs within the Desire Realm, specifically inside the mind of a sleeping being (like a human).
The Mechanism: When you sleep, your gross consciousness withdraws from your physical eyes and ears. Your mind sinks into the heart center. A "subtle mental body" arises, fueled by subtle winds (prana).
The Spatial Experience: It is a simulation zone. Because the mind has temporarily loosened its tie to the heavy physical body, the dream world feels pliable. You can fly, shift locations instantly, and interact with mental projections.
Tibetan View: It is recognized as a "mini-Bardo." It is a nightly practice run for death, where you experience a reality dictated by mental habits rather than physical laws.
The Bardo: The Great Intersection
Relative Location: The Bardo (Intermediate State) is the gap between lifetimes. It is the transit network that connects all three realms. It is "everywhere" and "nowhere" simultaneously.
The Mechanism: At death, the connection to the gross physical body (Desire Realm) is completely severed. The mind is stripped bare, inhabiting only the subtle mental body (similar to the dream body but far more intense).
The Spatial Experience:
Initial Phase (Chikhai Bardo): A brief flash of the absolute "Clear Light" (the nature of reality). It is non-spatial.
Becoming Phase (Sipa Bardo): This is the active transit. The being possesses a "mental body of light." It is highly mobile and clairvoyant. It can travel instantly to anywhere in the cosmos except its mother's womb (which is blocked until rebirth) and the holy inner sanctum of Bodhgaya.
Navigating the Map: In the Bardo, the "map" unfolds based on karma.
A being with heavy anger will hallucinate terrifying visions pulling them down toward the Hells.
A being with great merit might see pleasant visions leading them toward a Desire Realm heaven or a human rebirth.
An accomplished meditator can use the fluidity of the Bardo to recognize the nature of mind and "exit the map" entirely into Enlightenment.
Summary Visual
Think of the Desire Realm as a dense, noisy, crowded city on the ground.
Think of the Form Realm as silent, glowing cloud-cities floating far above the noise.
Think of the Formless Realm as the silent vacuum of space itself, beyond the clouds.
The Dream is when you close your eyes in the city and imagine flying.
The Bardo is the moment you have been evicted from your apartment in the city and are wandering the streets, driven by your habits, looking for a new door to open in any of the three realms.
THE BARDO, IN DETAIL
Please define more specifically what the bardo is. Isn’t it called the “in-between realm?” So it exists in between lives; is it then not connected to the desire etc realms? And tell me about the hindu version of the cosmos, including the afterlife.
GEMINI
This helps clarify the "location" problem significantly. You are correct that "Bardo" translates literally to "Intermediate State" (Bar = Interval, Do = Two), but it is a mistake to think of it as a separate "Fourth Realm" distinct from the Desire, Form, and Formless realms.
Here is the specific definition of the Bardo's location, followed by the Hindu cosmological map you requested.
1. The Bardo: A Hallway, Not a Destination1
The Bardo is not a separate country; it is the commute between countries.
Is it connected to the Desire Realm?
Yes, intimately. The Sipa Bardo (the Bardo of Becoming, which occurs just before rebirth) takes place within the energetic space of the Desire Realm.
The "Ghost" in the Room: Beings in the Sipa Bardo often hang around their previous homes, watching their funerals and listening to their relatives. They are physically located in the "Human Realm" (part of the Desire Realm), but because they have no physical body, they are invisible to us. They are "in-between" bodies, not "in-between" locations.
The Shape-Shifter:
Tibetan texts state that the body you have in the Bardo is determined by your destination, not your origin.
If you are karmically destined to be reborn as a Dog, your Bardo body will start to look like a subtle, dream-like dog.
If you are heading to a Hell Realm, your Bardo body will feel heavy and hot.
Therefore: The Bardo is not a neutral zone. It is a magnetic slide pulling you toward one of the Six Realms of the Desire System (or rarely, the higher realms).
In Summary: The Bardo is not a "Place." It is the gap in the lease. You have moved out of the old house (Death) but haven't got the keys to the new house (Rebirth). You are technically homeless, drifting through the streets of the Desire Realm.
2. The Hindu Cosmos: The Egg of Brahma (Brahmanda)
The Hindu view of the cosmos is far more vertical and "bureaucratic" than the Buddhist view. It is often depicted as a giant Cosmic Egg.
The Map: The 14 Lokas (Worlds)
Instead of 3 Realms (Desire, Form, Formless), Hinduism usually maps 14 planetary systems arranged vertically.
The Upper Worlds (The Heavens)
Satya-loka (Brahma-loka): The highest realm.
2 The abode of Brahma (Creator). Beings here have no physical bodies, only bodies of wisdom. (Roughly equivalent to the Formless/High Form Realm).Tapa-loka: The realm of Tapas (Ascetic heat).
3 Jana-loka: The realm of creative generation.
Mahar-loka: The realm of great sages (Rishis).
4 Svar-loka (Indra's Heaven): This is the classic "Heaven" where you go if you are a good person but not enlightened. It is filled with pleasure, Soma, and dancing girls (Apsaras). (Equivalent to the Buddhist Desire God realms).
Bhuvar-loka (Antariksha): The "Atmosphere" or intermediate space between Earth and Heaven. This is often where spirits, ghosts (Pretas), and lower demigods reside.
Bhu-loka: Earth. The physical plane where humans reside.
The Lower Worlds (The Subterranean Heavens)
Beneath the Earth are 7 lower worlds (Patala, Rasatala, etc.).5
Crucial Distinction: In Hinduism, these are often described not as "Hells" of torture, but as Material Paradises filled with gold, gems, and snake-beings (Nagas). They are realms of extreme material pleasure and ego, devoid of spiritual light.
The Hells (Naraka):
Separate from the 14 Lokas (often located just below the Earth in the south), there is a specific penal colony called Naraka. This is where sinners are sent for temporary punishment before being recycled back to Earth.
3. The Hindu Afterlife: The Bureaucracy of Death
While the Tibetan Bardo is an automatic, hallucinatory "trip" driven by your own mind, the Hindu afterlife is a structured Judicial Process.
Step 1: The Subtle Body Exit
When a person dies, the soul (Atman) wrapped in the subtle body (Sukshma Sharira) exits the physical body. It does not go to heaven immediately.
Step 2: The "Preta" Stage (The Ghost)
For 13 days (usually), the soul is a Preta (a hungry, confused ghost). It hangs around the house.
The Rituals: The family must perform rituals (Shraddha) to feed this ghost and help it construct a stable subtle body for the journey. Without these rites, the soul gets stuck as a ghost in the Bhuvar-loka(Atmosphere).
Step 3: The Journey to Yama-loka
Once the rites are done, the soul travels the "Path of the Dead" to the realm of Yama (The Lord of Death). This journey is described as arduous (crossing rivers of blood, burning sands, etc.).
Step 4: The Judgment
The soul stands before Yama.
Chitragupta (The Accountant): Yama’s assistant opens a giant ledger where every deed is recorded.
The Verdict:
Good Karma: You are sent to Svarga (Heaven) to enjoy your "merit points" for a fixed time.
Bad Karma: You are sent to Naraka (Hell) to burn off your "sin points" for a fixed time.
Step 5: The Ancestors (Pitri-loka)
Alternatively, virtuous souls who followed the Vedic duties may go to the Realm of the Ancestors (Pitri-loka), a stable, moon-like realm where they watch over their descendants and receive offerings.
Step 6: Rebirth (Samsara)
Once the karma (good or bad) is "spent" in Heaven or Hell, gravity takes over. The soul falls back down, enters a raindrop, enters a plant, is eaten by a male, enters the sperm, and is reborn on Earth (Bhu-loka).
Comparison: The Vibe
Tibetan Bardo: A psychedelic Hall of Mirrors. You are running from or toward your own projections. No judge, just magnetic attraction.
Hindu Afterlife: A Courthouse and a Vacation. You are judged by an external official, sent to a specific resort (Heaven) or prison (Hell), and then released when your sentence is up.
“MOKSHA AFTERLIFE”
Is there an alternate “moksha” afterlife of permanence in Hinduism for the Jivanmuktis?
GEMINI
Yes, absolutely. In fact, Moksha is the only true permanence in Hinduism.
The bureaucratic system I described previously (Yama, Heaven, Hell) is strictly for the "tourists"—the souls still trapped in the cycle of Samsara.
For a Jivanmukta (one who is liberated while still in the body), the rules of Yama do not apply. When their physical body dies, they do not go to the "Courtroom of Death." They enter Videhamukti (Liberation without the body).
Depending on the sect of Hinduism, this "permanent afterlife" takes one of two radically different forms: Merging (The Ocean) or Residing (The Eternal Planet).
1. The Advaita View: The Drop Becomes the Ocean (Kaivalya)
In the non-dualistic school (Advaita Vedanta), there is no "place" to go because the Jivanmukta realizes they are already everywhere.
The Event: Upon death, the "pot breaks." The space inside the pot (individual soul) instantly becomes one with the space outside the pot (Brahman).
The Experience: Total loss of individuality. You do not "meet" God; you realize you are God (Brahman).
The Analogy: A drop of water falling into the ocean. It is permanent, infinite, and blissful (Sat-Chit-Ananda), but "you" (the ego-personality) no longer exist to enjoy it.
Permanence: Absolute. You never return to birth.
2. The Bhakti View: The Eternal Planets (Vaikuntha / Goloka)
For the dualistic schools (Vaishnavism, Shaivism), the idea of "merging" is considered a form of spiritual suicide. They want to taste the sugar, not become the sugar.
For these Jivanmuktas (pure devotees), there are Eternal Abodes (Nitya-dhama) that exist far beyond the material universe and the temporary heavens. These planets are permanent, indestructible, and not subject to time.
A. Vaikuntha (The Abode of Vishnu)
This is the "Rome" of the spiritual world—majestic, opulent, and awe-inspiring.
The Location: It exists beyond the "River Viraja" (the boundary between matter and spirit).
The Form: The liberated soul receives a Spiritual Body (Siddha-deha) that looks almost exactly like Vishnu (four-armed, blue/black skin, beautiful). This is called Sarupya Mukti (Same Form).
The Activity: There is no old age or time. The souls serve Narayana (God) eternally in a state of reverent majesty.
B. Goloka Vrindavan (The Abode of Krishna)
This is the "Country Home" of the spiritual world—intimate, sweet, and pastoral.
The Atmosphere: Unlike the majestic Vaikuntha, this realm resembles a simple village.
The Relationship: The liberated souls here do not treat God as a King; they treat Him as a friend, a child, or a lover. The intimacy is so deep that they often forget He is God.
The Permanence: It is described as the highest, most confidential realm. Once you reach here, you never fall.
3. The Four Types of Permanent Liberation
Hinduism technically categorizes this "Alternate Afterlife" into four types of Moksha (Liberation), contrasting them with the temporary Svarga (Heaven):
Salokya: Living on the same planet as God (Permanence of Residence).
1 Samipya: Living as a personal companion of God (Permanence of Proximity).
2 Sarupya: Possessing the same form as God (Permanence of Likeness).
3 Sayujya: Merging into the body or effulgence of God (The Advaita/Ocean view).
Summary: The "No-Return" Policy
The definitive definition of this "Alternate Afterlife" is found in the Bhagavad Gita (8.16):
"From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place.
4 But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again."
So, the Jivanmukta bypasses the "Courtroom of Yama" entirely. They take the Path of Light (Devayana) and exit the material universe forever, either to dissolve into the Light or to reside in the Eternal City.
SUFI AFTERLIFE/ZOROASTRIAN AFTERLIFE
Does Sufism have a theory and map of the afterlife? How about Zoroastrianism?
GEMINI
Yes, both traditions possess highly detailed maps of the post-mortem journey. In fact, they offer some of the most vivid "geographies" of the soul in religious history.
Sufism focuses on the Imaginal Realm (a parallel to the Bardo), while Zoroastrianism provides the Architectural Prototype for the judgment scenes found later in Christianity and Islam.
Here is the breakdown of their maps and theories.
1. Sufism: The Isthmus of Imagination (Barzakh)
Sufi cosmology (particularly the school of Ibn Arabi) does not view the afterlife as a simple binary of Heaven or Hell.
The Theory: The Imagination is Real
Sufis posit a specific realm called Alam al-Mithal (The World of Image-Similitudes).2 This is not "imaginary" in the sense of "fake"; it is an ontological layer of reality between the physical world and the spiritual world.3+1
The Concept: Thoughts and spirits take on specific forms here. Your anger becomes a fire; your love becomes a garden. This is the exact mechanism of the Tibetan Bardo.
The Map: The Journey of the Soul
Maut (Death): The separation of the soul from the heavy biological suit.
The Barzakh (The Isthmus): This is the Sufi Bardo. It is the "Interworld" (Alam al-Mithal) where the soul resides until the Day of Resurrection.
The Experience: The soul possesses an "Imaginal Body" (Jism Mithali).
4 This body is woven from the person's character. If you were beastly in life, you might appear as a boar or dog in the Barzakh. If you were angelic, you appear radiant.The Function: It is a dream-state that is "more real than waking." You experience the consequences of your psyche.
The Greater Resurrection: For the common believer, this is the final judgment. But for the Sufi Adept, the "Resurrection" is the moment of Fana (Annihilation in God) and Baqa (Subsistence in God).
Paradise: Is not just gardens and rivers; it is the Vision of the Beloved's Face.
Hell: Is the Veil. It is the burning sensation of being separate from God.
The Key Insight:
Sufis say: "Die before you die."
This means: Enter the Barzakh voluntarily through meditation (dhikr) while you are still alive. Navigate the Imaginal World now so you don't get lost in it later.
2. Zoroastrianism: The Bridge of the Separator
Zoroastrianism (the ancient religion of Persia) arguably invented the "linear" afterlife map that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam later adopted. Its focus is intensely moral: Truth (Asha) vs. Lie (Druj).
The Theory: The Externalized Conscience
The core theory is that your internal moral character will eventually walk out in front of you and greet you as a separate person. You cannot hide from your own biography.
The Map: The 3 Days and the Bridge
The Three Days of Chanting:
Upon death, the soul (Urvan) does not leave immediately. It sits near the head of the corpse for three days and nights, chanting the Gathas (hymns).
The Experience: The soul experiences as much joy (or pain) in these 3 days as it did in its entire life combined.
The Wind:
On the dawn of the fourth day, a wind blows.
For the Righteous: A sweet, perfumed southern wind.
For the Wicked: A foul, rotting northern wind.
The Meeting with the Daena:
This is the most famous image in Zoroastrianism. The soul meets a figure called the Daena (Conscience).
If Good: She appears as a stunningly beautiful maiden. She says: "I am your own good thoughts, good words, and good deeds."
If Bad: She appears as a hideous, decrepit hag. She says: "I am your own bad thoughts, bad words, and bad deeds."
The Chinvat Bridge (The Selector):
The soul and the Daena must cross a bridge connecting this world to the next.5
For the Righteous: The bridge widens to the size of a league (very wide). They walk across easily to the House of Song.
For the Wicked: The bridge turns sideways and becomes narrow as a razor's edge. The soul tries to balance, but the "weight" of their sins drags them down. They fall into the abyss.
The Destination:
Garo Demana (House of Song): A realm of eternal light and music (Heaven).
Drujo Demana (House of Lies): A cold, dark, foul-smelling place where souls suffer in isolation (Hell).
Hamistagan (The Mixed Place): A limbo for those whose good and bad deeds are exactly equal. They float there until the end of time.
Frashokereti (The Final Renovation):
Unlike the eternal Christian Hell, Zoroastrian Hell is essentially a car wash. At the end of time, the world is purified by a river of molten metal.
To the Righteous: The metal feels like warm milk.
To the Wicked: It burns away their corruption.
Result: Everyone is purified and reunited in a perfected world.
Summary Comparison
| Feature | Sufism (Barzakh) | Zoroastrianism (Chinvat) |
| The Vehicle | The Imaginal Body (Jism Mithali) | The Soul (Urvan) + Conscience (Daena) |
| The Landscape | A dreamscape created by your own psyche (images). | A bridge and a meeting with a "Person" (Daena). |
| The Hell | Being Veiled (Distance from God). | The House of Lies (Cold, dark isolation). |
| The Goal | Fana: Annihilation/Merging into the Divine. | Frashokereti: Resurrection in a perfected physical world. |
Both traditions agree with your growing hypothesis: You build your own afterlife. In Sufism, you build the "image" you will inhabit; in Zoroastrianism, you build the "maiden" who will guide you.
