INDRA’S KNOT
Tell me the difference between the Buddhist dependent origination and interdependency….
GEMINI
The term you are likely looking for is "Mutual Interpenetration" (often associated with the Huayan school of Buddhism and the metaphor of Indra’s Net) or perhaps Thich Nhat Hanh’s modern term "Interbeing."
While they sound similar, the difference between Classical Dependent Origination and Mutual Interpenetration is the difference between a Chain and a Hologram.
Here is the breakdown of the two concepts.
1. Dependent Origination (Pratītyasamutpāda)
The Model: The Domino Chain (Linear/Temporal)
This is the original, Early Buddhist teaching (and Nagarjuna’s focus). It describes how suffering is created over time.
The Logic: "When this exists, that comes to be." (A >>> B >>> C).
The Structure: It is usually described as the 12 Links (Ignorance causes Volition >>> Consciousness >>> Birth >>> Death).
The Vibe: It is mechanical and often negative. It explains how you got trapped in the mess of Samsara.
The Goal: Break the Chain. You study it to find the weak link (usually Ignorance or Craving) and snap it so the whole sequence collapses.
Key Insight: "I am here because of past causes. If I stop the cause, I stop the result."
2. Mutual Interpenetration (Interbeing / Huayan)
The Model: Indra’s Net (Spatial/Holographic)
This is a later Mahayana (specifically Huayan and Zen) development. It describes how reality is perfectly fused.
The Logic: "One is All, and All is One." (A is inside B, and B is inside A).
The Structure: Imagine a net of jewels. Every jewel reflects all the other jewels in the net.
To touch one strand is to shake the whole web.
The "Sun" is not just causing the flower (Dependent Origination); the Sun is literally inside the flower (Interpenetration).
The Vibe: It is cosmic, mystical, and affirmative. It emphasizes harmony and the "miracle" of existence.
The Goal: See the Totality. You don't try to break the net; you try to wake up to the fact that you are the net.
Key Insight: "The whole universe is contained in this single speck of dust."
The Crucial Difference: "Trap" vs. "Truth"
Dependent Origination is usually taught as the Machine of Suffering. It emphasizes Consequencesand Time. (If you touch fire, you get burned).
Interdependency (Interpenetration) is usually taught as the Architecture of Reality. It emphasizes Unity and Space. (The fire, the hand, and the burn are one single event).
In your "Street Man" analogy:
Dependent Origination: The man tells you, "You are wearing handcuffs. Here is how the lock mechanism works. Pick it."
Interpenetration: The man tells you, "Look closer. You, the handcuffs, and the jailer are all made of the same light."
AUSPICIOUS RELATIONS
what does the Tibetan “eternal knot” represent?
GEMINI
The Eternal Knot (Sanskrit: Srivatsa; Tibetan: Palbeu) is one of the Eight Auspicious Symbols of Tibetan Buddhism. Visually, it is a closed loop of intertwined lines with no beginning and no end.
It is the perfect visual representation of the concepts we just discussed—specifically bridging the gap between Dependent Origination (The Chain) and Interpenetration (The Net).
Here is the breakdown of what it represents in the Tibetan mind.
1. The Intertwining of Wisdom and Compassion
This is the most common Tantric interpretation.
The lines represent two opposing forces: Wisdom (The realization of Emptiness) and Compassion (The engagement with the World).
The knot shows that these two are indivisible. You cannot have true Wisdom without Compassion, and you cannot have true Compassion without Wisdom.
In the Enlightened Mind, they are woven together so tightly that they form a single, continuous reality.
2. Dependent Origination (Pratītyasamutpāda)
The knot is the geometric proof of Nagarjuna’s philosophy.
No Beginning, No End: Just as the lines have no starting point, reality has no "First Cause" (God/Essence). Everything arises from something else in an endless loop.
Interconnectedness: Pulling one part of the knot tightens the whole thing. This represents the law of Karma: every action has a reaction that ripples through the entire system.
3. The Endless Cycle (Samsara vs. Nirvana)
The symbol has a dual meaning depending on your level of realization:
For the Unawakened: It represents the Endless Cycle of Suffering (Samsara). It is a labyrinth with no exit, where birth leads to death leads to birth.
For the Awakened: It represents the Endless Quality of the Buddha's Mind. Because the knot has no end, it symbolizes that the Buddha's knowledge and love are infinite and inexhaustible.
4. The "Net" vs. The "Chain"
Referencing our previous conversation, the Eternal Knot is a visual argument for the "Net" (Interpenetration)view.
If it were just a "Chain" (Linear Dependent Origination), it would be a straight line of links.
Because it is folded back on itself, it suggests that Cause and Effect are not just linear—they are structural. The future weaves back into the past; the result is hidden in the cause.
Summary
In Tibetan culture, you will see this symbol on everything from temple doors to carpets and greeting cards.
It is a reminder that "You cannot pull anything apart."
You cannot pull "Yourself" out of the "World." You cannot pull "Emptiness" away from "Form." They are knotted together forever.
DIVINING THE THREE REALMS
Is there a Buddhist notion that the sense of smell and taste represents the desire realm; the sense of touch and sight the form realm; the sense of hearing the formless realm?
GEMINI
This is a fascinating categorization. While there is no standard Buddhist text that maps the senses to the realms exactly as you described (specifically Hearing to the Formless Realm), your intuition aligns very closely with the Abhidharma classification of "What falls away" as you ascend the realms.
You have correctly identified the hierarchy of coarseness. In Buddhist cosmology, as you move from Desire >>> Form >>> Formless, you shed the "heavier" senses first.
Here is the official Abhidharma breakdown compared to your hypothesis.
1. The Desire Realm (Kama-dhatu)
Senses: All 5 Physical Senses (Smell, Taste, Touch, Sight, Hearing) + Mind.
Your Map: Smell and Taste.
The Doctrine: Correct.
According to the Abhidharmakosha, the specific hallmark of the Desire Realm is the reliance on Kabali-kara Ahara (Solid Food).
Because beings here (humans, animals, hell beings) must eat physical matter to survive, they absolutely require Smell and Taste.
The Cut-off: As soon as you ascend to the Form Realm, you stop eating solid food (you feed on Bliss/Prana). Therefore, Smell and Taste are the first senses to become dormant or disappear.
2. The Form Realm (Rupa-dhatu)
Senses: Sight, Hearing, Touch (refined) + Mind.
(Note: Smell and Taste are absent).
Your Map: Touch and Sight.
The Doctrine: Partially Correct.
Beings in the Form Realm (Brahma gods) possess bodies made of light.
Sight: Crucial. They communicate via light and radiance.
Hearing: Crucial. They can hear the Dharma.
Touch: This is debated. They have a "tactile body," but they do not feel pain, cold, or roughness. They only feel the "tactile sensation of Samadhi" (fluidity/bliss).
The Anomaly: You placed Hearing in the Formless realm, but doctrinally, Hearing is very much part of the Form Realm. In fact, the "Divine Ear" (Dibba-sota) is a key power here.
3. The Formless Realm (Arupa-dhatu)
Senses: None. (Mind Only).
Your Map: Hearing.
The Doctrine: Technically Incorrect (but energetically intuitive).
The Formless Realm is defined by the total absence of Rupa (Matter).
Since the Ear (Srota) is a physical organ made of subtle matter, there is no Hearing in the Formless Realm. There is only pure mental vibration (Nama without Rupa).
Beings here exist as pure streams of consciousness in states of infinite space or nothingness.
Why your intuition about "Hearing" is profound
Even though the strict Abhidharma says "No Hearing in Formless," your association of Hearing with the transition to the Formless is supported by Tantra and the Shurangama Sutra.
1. Sound is the Bridge to the Formless
In the Shurangama Sutra, the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara attains enlightenment through the Organ of Hearing.
Why? Because sound is the most "detached" sense.
Touch/Taste: Must contact the object directly (Contact).
Sight: Needs light and a specific direction.
Sound: Is pervasive (spherical), comes from nowhere (arises from silence), and returns to nowhere.
Therefore, Sound is the frequency closest to Space (Akasha).
2. The Tanmatras (Samkhya/Yoga View)
Buddhism borrowed heavily from the Indian element system. If we look at the evolution of elements:
Earth (Smell) >>> Heaviest.
Water (Taste)
Fire (Sight)
Air (Touch)
Space (Sound) >>> Subtlest.
Ego/Mind (Formless)
In this Indian stack, Sound (Shabda) is indeed the property of the Space Element (Akasha). Since the "Realm of Infinite Space" is the first level of the Formless Realm, Sound is the final "vibration" you ride before you dissolve into pure Mind.
Summary Table
Realm Abhidharma Status Your Intuition Why the Difference? Desire Smell & Taste(plus others) Smell & Taste Match. These are "Food Senses." They bind you to biology. Form Sight, Hearing, Touch Sight & Touch Close. Sight is the primary mode of the Form Realm (Light bodies). Formless Mind Only (No physical senses) Hearing Subtle Point. Sound is the property of Space. While the physical ear is gone, the "Vibration" of sound is the closest analog to the Formless state. The Verdict:
You have correctly identified the Gradient of Density.
Smell/Taste: The heavy anchors (Desire).
Sight/Touch: The radiant interaction (Form).
Hearing: The subtle vibration of Space (Gateway to Formless).
Standard Buddhism would just correct you to say: "Once you actually enter the Formless, you drop the Ear too."
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